Introverts, and Pop-Typing

[Thulefoth]

Hi,

I'm Ted Clayton, a classic INTP, but make a living as a rural chore boy. Firewood, roadwork, excavation, rustic resort-keeping & fix-anything. Nothing that resembles a job, thank you.

I have 2 areas of interest in the personality typing topic. One, introversion in general and a possibility there is now a 'coming out' process. Introverts are largely non-responsive to the basic assumptions of 'mass society', and recognition of them could be ... interesting.

Second, I am tired/despaired of reading the topic by NTs. We need folks who wouldn't be caught dead spouting weird acronyms, to claim it and take it away from us. Hmm?

P.S. It took several minutes to download this editor, on my dialup connection. I will look in the options for some relief. Otherwise, this may not be practical for me...

[GOD]

Hi Ted,

Let’s see if my views on this are of any use....

"Introverts are largely non responsive to society and potentially some coming out process"

Well, I view things from a "tribal" perspective simply because if you look at evolution of "society" then you can see that "mankind" has spent far more time as an "extended family" or "village concept".

So called "extroversion" within the psychological (Jung MBTI et al) concept is supposed to indicate a preference based on whether the person is energized or drained through interaction with others. However, this must be a relative preference, as interaction with others in a traditional "tribal" (village) environment is completely different to that now faced by people in cities. Just as one example, being say the risk aversion trait, (that you see in IxxJ amongst others) which would make an "introvert" more introverted in a city simply to close down additional "risk" which would not have occurred in a "village".

So, are introverts really "drained" by social interaction and "energized" by spending time alone? I actually don't agree to a factor of about 50%... Introverts seem to prefer additional time to "consolidate" and "reflect" on information (Stimulus) they have encountered in their interactions with others. I see "time alone" as the conscious act of sifting and organizing information before subconscious sleep files the information.

In terms of introversion, I think the internet has opened the eyes of many introverts and made them far more extroverted in their communications with others. Simply because they can gain better perspectives on their own thoughts/observations and that the interaction is more closely aligned with their own preferences/interests.

Intelligent people to me have a greater preference for introversion. It is not a case of introverted people being intelligent; it is more that intelligent people prefer introversion. When intelligent people are around others of the same outlook and intellect they become energized by this interaction, in effect they are extroverted.

Introverts can make themselves more extroverted if they wish, and in fact it can be necessary in many jobs to progress to higher levels of remuneration (managerial roles) as the ability to manage others and interact with them is critical. Intelligent introverts are potentially very able to be extroverted as they are smart enough to understand people if they really want to. (However, it still surprises me the amount of "office politics" that completely bypasses my radar screen - I'm focused on the processes and achieving goals and simply don't spend time thinking about who's saying or doing what... that is not specifically connected to the tasks at hand).

I am tired/despaired of reading the topic by NTs. We need folks who wouldn't be caught dead spouting weird acronyms, to claim it and take it away from us. Hmm?

I'm not absolutely sure what you are getting at here. Generally most of the acronyms you are reading are designed for and aimed at other academics or those that understand the "science"? This is probably a fair comment. Many people could benefit if things were written in less technical terms...

One thing though with "N's" intuitives. Most aren't that intuitive, they think they are, but in reality they are pretty weak intuitives. The truly great intuitives (And I haven't met many) are very high on the "F" (feeling) or "T" (Thinking) scale or probably have a very great ability to flex between F & T which is driven by emotions. It is the inward reflection through observation of others that enables them to understand themselves (in relation to everyone else) which gives them the ability to transfer this thinking to everything around them.

Lastly, "Intuition" (N) to me, is just accumulated "sensing" (S). However, people who are "Intuitive" appear to have points of reference (observations) in a three dimensional format which allows them make many different points of connection (Permutations). Whereas, the sensors tend to have them in a sequential format giving less ability to make combinations. As an analogy in business/IT it would be akin to the Intuitives having a decentralized/distributed way of dealing with information whereas the sensors have a more centralized control mode.

Very lastly, Intuitives need Sensors, and Sensors need Intuitives... it’s a division of duties in nature just like we have males and females.

Nb: All the above are my theories... psychology doesn't progress past the obvious, as there isn't any way of truly proving these assumptions!

Cheers.. GOD

[Thulefoth]

Ohhh ... this is better than I expected ... that the "tribe" in the website name refers to how people lived before 'mass-everything'. I could not agree more enthusiastically, that this is the right way to ask questions about the range of personality types we see in those around us ... that these things arose originally as part of family, small-group, tribal arrangements. And beneath a recent layer of paint, that is still exactly what they are.

Ah - and it gets better! At first scan of your reply, picking out the energy-language words, I thought, 'Oh no - here we go again with the energy draining out and building up thing ... what is this, anyway - acupuncture?'. [Not to diss on the Chinese and Indian energy-balance ideas & thinking ... ]

Yes, that introverts are not really ineffectual (or over-specialized) communicators, and can really do well & contribute agreeably to normal social-process, and the Internet is demonstrating it, is a key point.

I have realized for some time that choosing to essentially remain a 'boy', now mid-50s, has been very fortuitous for me. I do not have the 'luxury' to 'indulge' my traits in ways or paths that I see some who are similar to me ... basically getting trapped in. I cannot have an 'aloof' or 'condescending' demeanor going on, and function well in what is essentially an 'omega' role. My interactions with local community and transient 'tourists' has to be up-beat & repeat-worthy, to preserve my somewhat unusual & unique 'happy little home'. Agreed: strong introverts can have entirely wholesome 'outgoing' modes, and get better at it as they go!

That's not to say I've become extroverted. Hardly - and I don't figure that would be the result with other healthy introverts, either.

My complaint that the topic of personality types is too NTs-heavy (not to pick on "intuitives"), reflects my experience that way too many people 'on the street' have either no idea what all this fancy talk is about (in the good case), or (more disappointingly) actively go into a smirk & shields-up mode, at it's mere mention. These ideas and various articulations have been around for generations now; they take up major aspects of social & personal welfare ... but they are not propagating through the general population. They remain instead the province, even the 'play-thing' of a small, distinct, and - most adversely - essentially isolated sub-population(s).

There are stories about the introduction of potatoes and tomatoes to Europe, that there was resistance to and fear of the new crops. To overcome these forms of rejection, the story goes, authorities might set up armed guards on storage facilities for spuds ... say near a popular roadhouse with amply ale on tap. Or, establish outrageous tax-levies on the commerce in tomato seeds, leading to the usual popular responses to unfair taxation.

So ... the populace ripped off the goods, made merry with the intellectual property rights, and the obviously-wonderful but 'strange' and 'threatening' new resources were thus rapidly disseminated throughout the land. You can't argue (to any positive effect) with the scared ... but you can avert your gaze and let them clip you in the side of the head ... whereupon they feel much better about the whole process ... and indeed, may even claim it was their idea all along!

Figuratively speaking, personality typing ideas are still confined to plots owned by government, fat-cats and elites, with the great bulk of the populace scowling & crossing themselves as they walk by the fields, hurrying past and blocking the children's view. This has to change in a major way, for it to become 'real'.

Charles Darwin would empathize with our predicament.

Besides the misgivings of 'the street', there are concerns by society's managers, who have set up the general dynamic to elevate & favor typically-extrovert attributes, in order to better-promote various mass-market business forms, national identities, 'standardization', etc. A significant aspect of how that came about (in the early Industrial Era) involved 'putting down' the typically-introvert attributes. That is an important aspect of how it came to be that the introverted nature was relegated to a border-line disorder that one should attend to.

To 'better-validate' introvert-ways is potentially quite a (legitimate) concern for societal norms today - regardless how questionable some of those norms might be, from some viewpoints. Additionally, there are non-introvert sectors of the populace who may well find the lifestyles of 'enabled' introverts more attractive than the presently-conventional range of options. The portion of the country overall that may be inclined to excuse itself from the dominant 'expectations' of today could be quite a bit larger than a 'liberated' introvert-population. A successful pro-introvert movement could 'incite' follow-on 'recruitment'. It could even add up to a majority.

Looking at the 'colorful', 'personality-parade' forms of early American (pre-Industrial) culture, in which largely self-directed introvert psychologies appear to play prominent roles, I am impressed that the issue of introvert-status is the 800 pound gorilla in the future of personality typing.

In other words, the legendary 'individuality' and 'self reliance' that became an important hallmark of early New World Euro-cultures, looks heavily introvert-influenced. The story is, with the arrival of factories and mass-society, we laid aside the styles of the pioneer days and settled into more-appropriate roles. Problem is, what characterized those days wasn't a matter of "style".

Actually ... just as our array of traits is still "tribal", we are still very much the feather in yer hat, twirl the corncob pipe, be-anything-but-you oriented people that ... had to be displaced and toned-down, to install Industrial ("mass-everything") Society.

[GOD]

Yes, whether we like it or not... were pretty tribal in my opinion. The vast majority of people act on their instincts and emotions. Most people seek affiliation with a group they can identify... that’s why billions is spent on marketing!

This so called energy draining aspect that many "psychologists" advocate has some merit, but is not actually right in my opinion. Most people are energized by interaction with others. Smart people are drained by interaction with various types of people when in fact they want to be energized. I think of it like someone reading a book... the reader might be energized by interaction with the author’s words, but be drained talking to a bunch of "wasters". I think it is the interaction with the type of people rather than the people that matters. Still though, as the introversion/extroversion test is designed for splitting the population, you could become more extroverted and still be classified as introverted. (Likewise, it’s pretty evident that many people are extroverted simply because they cannot intellectually stimulate themselves enough to enjoy solitude....).

I think introverts and so forth complementary traits are able to be very good communicators and have exemplary social skills... BUT.. Its a case of "use it or lose it".. In effect because introverts don't need to develop social skills (or just don't as much time on them) they can have on a relative basis less developed skills than extroverts. To me, it’s ok to be introverted if it’s your decision rather than being externally forced on you due to social exclusion (Then that person has issues to deal with!).

You sound a bit like my father (late 50's). The stoic introvert. Because of a family bereavement he now has to become more extroverted and has to engage in social activities that he would have bypassed in the past. As I said to someone else, basically it’s a case of taking small steps and pushing your introversion boundary out a bit each time as you go and get more comfortable. Like, upgrade the clothes a bit... take some compliments and so forth and so forth.

Me, I'm very off the scale in my NT and intuition. I've spent my whole life trying to understand other people so I can understand myself. Both my parents typed as INTJ's... so there is something in that. I strongly believe that psychological traits are inherited biologically. Just as the propensity for skin and hair coloring and so forth... e.g. the way the brain is wired.

Most psychology types along with artists and so forth, have a propensity to retain some mystique on their vocation... however, if you look closely you can see the holes. That’s the fun and the challenge...

I first came across the typing of personalities when I was doing a management course at university, what’s amazed me the most... is that virtually no progress has been made since that I can see. I remember once at University hearing that some 10,000 academic articles relating to HR are produced each year.. WTF!! They must be turning over the same old "fertilizer".

With introversion/extroversion it’s quite interesting if you look at it from a sociological perspective, simply because if you have specialization of production that requires teams and structures and large numbers of people in close proximity (cities incl)... which is all more extroverted. (Centralization of everything). However, with the internet etc we can become more introverted (decentralized) etc. Like most things in life, the better you understand yourself the sooner you can find the right groove for yourself. I often say "that the amount spent on aligning people with suited occupations is far too low relative to the massive funds placed into training them in the first place (School etc)". Personally, I'd have some psychology awareness for all children so they can understand that people like different things in life... rather that "Geeks and Jocks" tribes evolving at school.

One thing to remember though, is that the introversion and extroversion scale within society is most likely to be a bell shaped distribution with a small minority being very introverted and a small minority being very extroverted, with the vast majority being somewhere in the middle. Mass media favors extroversion simply because there is more to write about... and extroverted people (I believe) are more consumer orientated (They are very brand/tribe orientated as they need to acquire some form of identity as they do not tend to see the world as a unique individual). I do think that the majority of the population is closer to introversion, however the huge level of consumerism in the US has diverted their attention away from what is real... their families. Interestingly, the whole ongoing movement away from TV to the internet may mean that significantly more people engage in meaningful conversation on blogs and so forth, which is quite an interesting concept. On the internet they read more and so forth.. No doubt some academic will start writing on this sooner or later.

One thing I have noticed over my life (I started making an effort in my early teens) is that it takes about 5-10 years to truly move from introversion to being extroverted enough to appear extroverted. However, I think that you remain an introvert but you acquire the abilities to do the whole extroversion piece and then settle into introversion as required. (Bit like having a joke and messing about, and then switching into a more focused mode and doing the work required).

[Louie]

What a fascinating place/forum!

G'day everyone, thanks for such a hotbed of my favorite stuff.

....and, err, God...nice to meet you

This thread caught my eye because of the reference of why isn't personality taught more (school), exactly, and good point.

How come personality type is (looking for right words), so disregarded in society/education? Communication being such an important part of our lives, relating to different people and their personalities...I've just come from an investing forum and while it shares great practical info, a lot of the investors and would be investors.....don't take on board their personalities much at all. To me it is everything.

Apart from the matters of survival, is not our mindset and personality our major driving force in our lives? How we see stuff, perceive stuff?

Here it is:

You realise I am about to quote God, (I will get over this, it's just really amusing me at the moment):

Personally, I'd have some psychology awareness for all children so they can understand that people like different things in life... rather that "Geeks and Jocks" tribes evolving at school.

Yes, yes and yes!

Hell yes.

[Louie]

God:

In terms of introversion, I think the internet has opened the eyes of many introverts and made them far more extroverted in their communications with others. Simply because they can gain better perspectives on their own thoughts/observations and that the interaction is more closely aligned with their own preferences/interests.

Yes it has, it is the most amazing thing, it is information, education, socialisation, absorbing, research and just plain fun. I love the internet. It does have a sinister side to it, but the benefits are incredible.