Critique of the INTJ typing…

[GOD]

Introduction: This critique has been written to better explain the underlying mindset of the INTJ. Any additional discussion (including disagreements!) should be posted on this website forum All typeset in Italics are the property of Typelogic.com and the respective authors (Marina Margaret Heiss), it is only included as it is similar to most academic writings on the INTJ “tribe” of people. Normal font is the views of this website.

Let’s begin the joust…

To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

Completely true. Given their propensity to think and conceptualize over long periods of time (lifetime of the INTJ) there is an inevitable culmination of knowledge in specific areas. More so, given the logical basis and construct of that thinking it can be rapidly mobilized and utilized in various endeavors who’s common thread is mostly “rational and deductive reasoning”. The J channels the thoughts into a directionally focused outcome.

INTJs are perfectionists, with a seemingly endless capacity for improving upon anything that takes their interest. What prevents them from becoming chronically bogged down in this pursuit of perfection is the pragmatism so characteristic of the type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

INTJs have the ability to juggle concepts in their minds and be rational enough to determine which solution has the required “fitness for purpose” within the available parameters or at least is the best answer given the unknowns; this is why INTJ’s tend to always have an answer for any problem. Problems are food for the INTJ mind, as these simulate their desire to think and conceptualize. INTJ’s tend to dislike authority as this is in contradiction to the freedoms they have in their thoughts.

INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait combination of imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ; both perfectionism and disregard for authority may come into play, as INTJs can be unsparing of both themselves and the others on the project. Anyone considered to be "slacking," including superiors, will lose their respect -- and will generally be made aware of this; INTJs have also been known to take it upon themselves to implement critical decisions without consulting their supervisors or co-workers. On the other hand, they do tend to be scrupulous and even-handed about recognizing the individual contributions that have gone into a project, and have a gift for seizing opportunities which others might not even notice. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

Just maybe INTJs are systems builders in order to create “efficient action” which could quite possibly be related to a “survivalist type” undertone. The moral cause is related to this in the context of ensuring the “groups survival”. The hierarchal structures that exist in the INTJ psyche are not those necessarily imposed by any institutional structure, at best the closest is a matrix structure.

In the broadest terms, what INTJs "do" tends to be what they "know". Typical INTJ career choices are in the sciences and engineering, but they can be found wherever a combination of intellect and incisiveness are required (e.g., law, some areas of academia). INTJs can rise to management positions when they are willing to invest time in marketing their abilities as well as enhancing them, and (whether for the sake of ambition or the desire for privacy) many also find it useful to learn to simulate some degree of surface conformism in order to mask their inherent unconventionality. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

INTJ’s are approximately 50% type 5’s in the Ennenagram test, which indicates the “scientist” approach. However, a significant number have other preferences and as such type 8 the challenger would focus them towards more conflict situations such as commerce or law.

Ennengram tests can be taken here http://www.psychologytribe.com/forum...test-free.html

Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

Essentially INTJ’s tend to value extroversion and thus people less highly than the world of thoughts and concepts. In fact other people’s projections of their own underdeveloped thoughts and needs, only adds to the INTJ’s desire to be reserved.

It is somewhat a misnomer that INTJ’s don’t care. They do. But only for those they care for. Furthermore the INTJ introversion can actually push them towards being less inclined for personal relationships beyond which they should naturally be; this however can catch up with them at some later point.

The Achilles heel is more about using their rational though processes to predict behavior of others which in itself is often not predictable.
While INTJ’s can be reserved and introverted, this often is not the case when surrounded by other similar minded people. They become energized by these dialogues.

This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

Wrong, INTJ’s don’t generally care for social rituals. Social rituals also impose group thought and consensus, which is alien to the mindset of the INTJ as well as requiring extroversion. INTJs can and do have very detailed understandings of those that form part of their selected group. Remember, it is often said of INTJs that "they can see right through you..." hence, they can often know what makes a person tick in detail. People are systems and are often analysed.

Probably the strongest INTJ assets in the interpersonal area are their intuitive abilities and their willingness to "work at" a relationship. Although as Ts they do not always have the kind of natural empathy that many Fs do, the Intuitive function can often act as a good substitute by synthesizing the probable meanings behind such things as tone of voice, turn of phrase, and facial expression. This ability can then be honed and directed by consistent, repeated efforts to understand and support those they care about, and those relationships which ultimately do become established with an INTJ tend to be characterized by their robustness, stability, and good communications. (Excerpt from Typelogic.com)

T’s don’t have the kind of natural empathy that Fs do.. Is false. The INTJ has empathy but from a preservation perspective it focuses on the close group. It is agreed that Fs can have empathy that goes to the extent that Mercy is valued higher than Justice which extends to cover those out of the INTJs smaller group focus (Although the F can help hold a smaller group unit together). Nb: INTJs are less likely to care about non group members as these are rationally not beneficial and/or not maintainable at the rate of empathy that is desired to be expended on the close group.

INTJs over time can be better at understanding others (Than even Fs) simply due to their ability to analyze. Unless Fs have some “unknown ability” they too understand others using sensing and thinking abilities.

[Cyborgtyrant]

Excellent post, when relating it to myself I see that most of it appears to be correct however for a few things differ, such as the fact I do not consider myself private since there is no point in my opinion to keep things from the world when sharing knowledge about myself with others and getting feedback can trigger more thought to help me understand myself.

I have given off the appearance of confidence before, however I am nowhere near confident in myself due to how liquid I make my views to allow for growth and the ability to adapt so I can grow mentally. I am confident enough to argue with others online though lol, in person I only do with close friends XD.

Like all the rest is right though lol, even down to the making sense part being very important...which lead to my gf breaking up with me today . I do find the rituals important though since they directly effect how the other person can feel even if the whole point of them ever coming into existance in the first play apears stupid like wuite a few manners do, but now we are stuck with them in a society that follows them because of what they represent.

[GOD]

Excellent post, when relating it to myself I see that most of it appears to be correct however for a few things differ, such as the fact I do not consider myself private since there is no point in my opinion to keep things from the world when sharing knowledge about myself with others and getting feedback can trigger more thought to help me understand myself.

I have given off the appearance of confidence before, however I am nowhere near confident in myself due to how liquid I make my views to allow for growth and the ability to adapt so I can grow mentally. I am confident enough to argue with others online though lol, in person I only do with close friends XD.

Like all the rest is right though lol, even down to the making sense part being very important...which lead to my gf breaking up with me today . I do find the rituals important though since they directly effect how the other person can feel even if the whole point of them ever coming into existance in the first play apears stupid like wuite a few manners do, but now we are stuck with them in a society that follows them because of what they represent.

In terms of "privacy" (Introversion) its more about spending a greater percentage of time locked in your own thoughts and analysis.

Once, a competent (intelligent) INTJ (As I guess you're that) really knows their stuff they don't mind telling everyone and assuming control. I think its a misnomer that INTJs hang back and don't take on authority -> Its more about disliking dealing with all the superficial crap that goes with contolling others. We are efficient, we like to achieve and not deal with everyones feelings and constant underperformance...

Confidence/arguing etc is just a function of being prepared to engage and get used to it. Its like being an Intovert and not liking attention so the person wears less "extroverted" clothing etc. Yet, get that intovert and get them to step out of their comfort zone often enough and you'll find they do get used to some/alot of attention.

I believe INTJs don't move on quickly from relationships, basically because they have such a wall containing their emotions that when it all goes pear shaped, they get lost in the emotions that reigns greater than their usual thinking control. (Whereas all the "feelers" and "extroverts" have been going through it more often, as more group focused and extrovert. Also, greater socialisation allows them to reconnect elsewhere quicker).

Yes, with social rituals... its only when you've become so INTJ that you realize that you're like the BORG and simple pleasures of life you have denied yourself. An INTJ will give money as a present, whereas a Feeler will give a small and even inexpensive present that actually is a personal expression of affection.

I've just written up a page on the INTJ at INTJ Personality Type which will be updated as people contribute. Hopefully I'll make it a pretty extensive "article".

[Cyborgtyrant]

In terms of "privacy" (Introversion) its more about spending a greater percentage of time locked in your own thoughts and analysis.

Once, a competent (intelligent) INTJ (As I guess you're that) really knows their stuff they don't mind telling everyone and assuming control. I think its a misnomer that INTJs hang back and don't take on authority -> Its more about disliking dealing with all the superficial crap that goes with contolling others. We are efficient, we like to achieve and not deal with everyones feelings and constant underperformance...

Confidence/arguing etc is just a function of being prepared to engage and get used to it. Its like being an Intovert and not liking attention so the person wears less "extroverted" clothing etc. Yet, get that intovert and get them to step out of their comfort zone often enough and you'll find they don't get used to some/alot of attention.

I believe INTJs don't move on quickly from relationships, basically because they have such a wall containing their emotions that when it all goes pear shaped, they get lost in the emotions that reigns greater than their usual thinking control. (Whereas all the "feelers" and "extroverts" have been going through it more often, as more group focused and extrovert. Also, greater socialisation allows them to reconnect elsewhere quicker).

Yes, with social rituals... its only when you've become so INTJ that you realize that you're like the BORG and simple pleasures of life you have denied yourself. An INTJ will give money as a present, whereas a Feeler will give a small and even inexpensive present that actually is a personal expression of affection.

I've just written up a page on the INTJ at INTJ Personality Type which will be updated as people contribute. Hopefully I'll make it a pretty extensive "article".

Hmmm, I guess so about the privacy thing but I still find imput from other types can help me grasp the full complexity of concepts where my way of thinking can somewhat fail because I dont stumble across the idea that explains it the most efficiently. Lol, authority, I dislike a lot of authority if it makes no sense which is typical of an INTJ, one thing I dislike a lot is how illogical some manners are...dunno if I said that in another comment lol, got a feeling that I did say that recently.

Hmm, my views seem to vary when it comes to others feelings etc, I like to try and boost them up and try to get them to think similar to me lol, plus I do get satisfaction from helping others out, its like a goal in my mind to try and uncorrupt this greatly corrupt world, but I know realistically I will never get close to doing such a thing. I do agree about achieving though, but helping friends with subjects that we both do I find helps increase my own performance in such an area. If I am able to teach a concept I am more likely to understand it well enough for exams.

When you said that getting an introvert out of their confort zone often were you meant to say they wont get used to the new situations or wont get used to the new situations? its just I used to be extremely uncomfortable and afraid of catching the public bus but after doing it a few times I managed to memerise the appropiate social conduct and wordings to turn it into an automated process that I was perfectly fine undergoing, that makes sense with your first sentince in that paragraph but not your last sentince there lol.

I definately agree with your wall between emotion, I call the state in which I am ignoring them a state of denial, which I came out of just after I posted my last comment here. I started to feel angry and the image in my mind of who my ex gf was semed to twist into someone who was just out to get e, then after all of that I have fallen more into a depressive state where at times I manage to distract myself into another state of denial, regaining control until something else triggers the wall to crumble again.

Ummm, I do not know what the BORG is lol, is it like a robot? Borg is usually a shortened form of Cyborg so I am gonna assume that XD. Hmm, well strangely I do understand even that social concept. I have thought a lot upon things such as emotional responses etc and see the worth of such things since even though I am a thinking type all motives come from emotion and the whole purpose of actions is to feel a positive emotional response to lift my mood. Its not right to assume that the INTJ wont come to his own understanding of why social rituals are important.

Ah ok lol ...thats the page that I found this forum through XD

[GOD]

Hmmm, I guess so about the privacy thing but I still find imput from other types can help me grasp the full complexity of concepts where my way of thinking can somewhat fail because I dont stumble across the idea that explains it the most efficiently.

Yes, I think I learned some things from my NF ex g/f. basically how to just "live" a little and how not to neglect the "personalisation" of gifts and so forth.

Lol, authority, I dislike a lot of authority if it makes no sense which is typical of an INTJ, one thing I dislike a lot is how illogical some manners are...dunno if I said that in another comment lol, got a feeling that I did say that recently.

Dislike of Authority is more of a P (perceiving) trait. Although brain dead rules/regulations to conform the masses and impacts our everyday lives is incredibly annoying.

Hmm, my views seem to vary when it comes to others feelings etc, I like to try and boost them up and try to get them to think similar to me lol, plus I do get satisfaction from helping others out, its like a goal in my mind to try and uncorrupt this greatly corrupt world, but I know realistically I will never get close to doing such a thing.

One thing to remember is that all these "do gooders" basically tries to kill any competition and their generally poor efficiency (They love bureaucracy) and just takes any ambition out of life. If you want to go after corruption then you need look no further than numerous people in large corporates... all trying to end game their positions and taking a large wedge of cash with them as they depart. Law firms, Accountancy firms... are amongst the worst.. They breed the very worst of types in my experience.

When you said that getting an introvert out of their confort zone often were you meant to say they wont get used to the new situations or wont get used to the new situations? its just I used to be extremely uncomfortable and afraid of catching the public bus but after doing it a few times I managed to memerise the appropiate social conduct and wordings to turn it into an automated process that I was perfectly fine undergoing, that makes sense with your first sentince in that paragraph but not your last sentince there lol.

I confused the sentence by writing "don't" instead of "do".. Since changed. Essentially, a number of "introverts" seem to be so because they think too much "I bet they are looking at my clothing" and so forth.. Which undermines their self confidence. In a sense many introverts can almost become "agoraphobic".. I've been there... that’s when self confidence becomes too pronounced.

In terms of "comfort zone" I'm talking more about an introvert realizing their boundary when they feel they would be becoming a bit too "extrovert". Often introversion in early youth/childhood can carry into adulthood when it need not. So, I'm saying, is if you know the boundary then push it out a bit more. I'd say many introverts would and could become a lot more extrovert over time as they consistently push the boundary out at their own pace.

I definately agree with your wall between emotion, I call the state in which I am ignoring them a state of denial, which I came out of just after I posted my last comment here. I started to feel angry and the image in my mind of who my ex gf was semed to twist into someone who was just out to get e, then after all of that I have fallen more into a depressive state where at times I manage to distract myself into another state of denial, regaining control until something else triggers the wall to crumble again.

Yeah, I know where you're at... its pure sh*t to say the least. If you're introverted with some pretty big walls to protect your emotions then there's nothing like this that can just bring everything crashing down. The only way to get better at this sort of thing.. Is essentially (from my experience) is allow the walls to be more porous and have more and less full on relationships. (Like how a lot of more extroverted people tend to have many shades of relationships with g/friends). But at the same time, you needn't have to "put yourself around a bit"...

Ummm, I do not know what the BORG is lol, is it like a robot? Borg is usually a shortened form of Cyborg so I am gonna assume that XD. Hmm, well strangely I do understand even that social concept. I have thought a lot upon things such as emotional responses etc and see the worth of such things since even though I am a thinking type all motives come from emotion and the whole purpose of actions is to feel a positive emotional response to lift my mood. Its not right to assume that the INTJ wont come to his own understanding of why social rituals are important.

Ah ok lol ...thats the page that I found this forum through XD

The BORG is those guys that fly around the universe in cubes and assimilate people into their "collective". (A brave new world meets communism ) they are on deep space nine or star trek I believe. When I talk of INTJ becoming BORG I mean that you simply dismiss any feeling and become so scientific/methodical and results focused that you forget what its like to just simply "enjoy" and live for the moment. Which is probably another problem of the INTJ... thinking so much that we create huge holes and fall into them... and then we have to dig ourselves out of them... but as always.. Searching and exploring this vast area.. of the mind.

[MadmanMSU]

Interesting....

As an INTJ myself, I would agree with most of what has been posted. Most of the things I disagree with are nitpicking, so it's not really worth mentioning.

The only major point I would make is that the personality typings are generalizations, and as such, allow for lots of different interpretations and variations in expression. Which would probably explain the different "takes" both of you have on the finer points of being INTJ's.

[GOD]

Interesting....

As an INTJ myself, I would agree with most of what has been posted. Most of the things I disagree with are nitpicking, so it's not really worth mentioning.

The only major point I would make is that the personality typings are generalizations, and as such, allow for lots of different interpretations and variations in expression. Which would probably explain the different "takes" both of you have on the finer points of being INTJ's.

Personality typings are effetively aggregations/clusterings of similar traits. In reality there is a different personality type for every person on the planet.

So, by effectively grouping it then becomes necessary to make assumptions as to similar traits. There will always be outliers in the group where the statements as to similarity will be reasonably inaccurate.

Hence, we have "macro" traits which are reasonably standard (simply because the test questions ensure such) and then we move towards more "micro" traits which have greater variability in their relevance to the individual. (Which is where I am most interested in).

[Louie]

This is quite sad reading...of all the things not have working/buzzing for you is feeling...so you guys are the tinmen?

I wonder what the worst type is for relationships, by that I mean actually being in relationships, who is the loneliest type? Which type has the most trouble establishing and keeping a relationship?

[GOD]

This is quite sad reading...of all the things not have working/buzzing for you is feeling...so you guys are the tinmen?

I wonder what the worst type is for relationships, by that I mean actually being in relationships, who is the loneliest type? Which type has the most trouble establishing and keeping a relationship?

I think you have to be a bit careful on that front. Everyone feels, just whether it is greater of less than our ability to control it. If indeed you wish to control it.

You could say INTJs are tinmen (although evidently you don't understand the psych type), but we could equally say there are many mushy feelings governed people who lack the appropriate backbone to take control of their lives... they appeal with and relate to, group norms and are easily led.

The worst relationship types are going to be the most mismatched types.. such as Intuitives with sensors and Judging types with Perceivers. (IQ, personality and loads of other attributes obviously come into play).

Lets say an ENTJ with an ISTP would be likely very problematic. (If the ENTJ was a woman then I couldn't even see how she'd consider the ISTP).